What would be implied by a person or culture (possibly, but not necessarily, one of the Fair Folk) addressing people as "Daughter of Adam" and "Son of Eve"?
It would certainly imply that the culture had discovered a work-around for the misogyny inherent in the apportioning of blame for the Fall.
Although, it just occurs to me in connection with rysmiel's comment about the Lilim, that "Daughters of Adam" (like "Sons of Adam," although Lewis is so very very careful not to go there) doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING about Daughter by Which Wife. Adam had three wives, after all.
Also, the Sons of Eve are Cain and Abel. Another point which the gender chiasmus highlights.
"Daughters of Adam, Sons of Eve" is a good formulation. Just look at all the questions it raises!
Don't forget Seth, the good son who brought flowers and take-out and who everyone forgets about because he isn't exciting.
And Lewis does go there, the White Witch was a daughter of Adam by his first wife, Lilith, on her mother's side, IIRC, at least in LWW, if not in her Charn incarnation in the retcon in tMN.
I think the address would provide a triangulation point for a culture. You'd need the others to know what it was doing precisely, but it would certainly imply a raftload of things about religion, gender issues, gender inheritance customs...
And Lewis does go there, the White Witch was a daughter of Adam by his first wife, Lilith, on her mother's side, IIRC, at least in LWW, if not in her Charn incarnation in the retcon in tMN.
Okay, yes, good point, I was forgetting that about the White Witch's spurious claim as a Daughter of Adam.
There's something weird in there somewhere about why being a Daughter of Adam (the White Witch) is bad and being a Son of Adam (Peter, Edmund) is good, but I have a head cold and feel dreadful and can't articulate it.
There's something weird in there somewhere about why being a Daughter of Adam (the White Witch) is bad and being a Son of Adam (Peter, Edmund) is good...
Actually, in LWW it doesn't work out like that. The White Witch is not human at all - not "Daughter of Adam" or "Daughter of Eve."
(pg. 77, LWW) "...But she's no Daughter of Eve. She comes of your father Adam's --" (here Mr. beaver bowed) "your father Adam's first wife, her they called Lilith. And she was one of the Jinn. That's what she comes from on one side. And on the other she comes of giants. No, no, there isn't a drop of real Human blood in the Witch."
In LLW, then, Lilith is identified as a demon, not a human. The White Witch is descended from a demon and a giant; the point is that she looks human, and tries to trade on that, but she is not.
For C.S. Lewis in the Chronicles, "Daughter of Eve" meant human girl, "Son of Adam" meant human boy. Both were titles of royalty. For Lewis, the Biblical allusion was meant to invoke both original blessing and original sin, and applied equally to the boys and the girls. (from pg. 211-12, PC) "I do indeed, Sir," said Caspian. "I was wishing that I came of a more honourable lineage." "You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve," said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth. Be content."
Three wives? I'm aware of the legend of Lilith, originally courtesy of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (it is definitely not part of an extremely traditional Orthodox Jewish education; I doubt my father has ever heard of it), but who was the third wife?
Actually, the legend of Lilith is originally from the Talmud -- my books are at home and I'm in Florida, so I can't look it up. The second wife had no name.
Lilith is in the Talmud, yes (isn't everything?) but I don't think the legend originates there. I'm pretty certain she's in Apocrypha somewhere, (the Book of Ben Sirach if my memory's not completely letting me down here), and also I think in one of the major Targumim. I think those are earlier sources than the Talmud, though of course dating the latter is always a problem.
The second wife I don't know much about other than that she existed; when you do get to your books, if you felt like providing more detail I'd be most grateful.
My memory is that that is all the detail there is: there was this second wife who Hashem created in front of Adam which just grossed him out so much that he couldn't deal with her at all.
Well, I can't categorically state that no such thing appears in the entire Talmud, let alone in any Jewish source, but I very much doubt it. If you ever find a reference, please let me know. As I said in my other comment, I have tried chasing down those references that I did find cited, and none of them turned out to even hint at this legend, which is why I'm skeptical of such claims.
A few years ago, I came across a list of alleged Talmudic references to the Lilith legend, and looked them all up - not a single one panned out. The one biblical usage seems to mean a type of bird, possibly an owl of some sort. There are a few references in the Talmud that could either mean a type of bird or a type of demon, and some more that seem clearly to mean a type of demon, but not one specific demon (the word used in almost all these places is 'lilin', which could be a plural of 'lilith'). And there was one reference which seemed clearly to refer to one specific demon with the name 'Lilith', but there was no indication that she had any connection to Adam.
Now it could be that there is a clear Talmudic reference to the Lilith legend, that wasn't on the list I saw, but I'm skeptical.
Lilith (a female demon) is referred to in Job 18:15 and Isa 34:14, and the note (in the new Swedish translation) says the Adam coupling is a post-biblical tradition.
The 'lilith' in Isa 34:14 (http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/t/t1034.htm) ('there the lilith rests, and found itself a resting place') could be read as a species of demon, but it could just as easily be any sort of animal or bird which can be found in old ruins. There certainly seems to me no basis for reading it as a reference to an individual (of any species) with the name Lilith.
As for Job 18:15 (http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/t/t2718.htm) I assume your source is translating mibelilo as 'from in his lilith', which is a vast stretch, to say the least; a much more likely translation is 'from not being his' or 'that which is not his' (mibeli lo).
For some reason the online version of Job I linked to above represents mibelilo as one word. Last night I looked it up in a printed version, and it's two words: mibeli lo. That absolutely explodes any notion of it referring to Lilith. Mibeli, literally, means ‘for lack of’, and lo means ‘to him’.
The version I learned (from the curator of the Jewish Museum in Athens) is that Adam had three wives: Lilith, Wisdom, and Eve. Lilith got kicked out for demanding to be on top during sex, and I can't remember what happened to Wisdom.
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Although, it just occurs to me in connection with
Also, the Sons of Eve are Cain and Abel. Another point which the gender chiasmus highlights.
"Daughters of Adam, Sons of Eve" is a good formulation. Just look at all the questions it raises!
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And Lewis does go there, the White Witch was a daughter of Adam by his first wife, Lilith, on her mother's side, IIRC, at least in LWW, if not in her Charn incarnation in the retcon in tMN.
I think the address would provide a triangulation point for a culture. You'd need the others to know what it was doing precisely, but it would certainly imply a raftload of things about religion, gender issues, gender inheritance customs...
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Okay, yes, good point, I was forgetting that about the White Witch's spurious claim as a Daughter of Adam.
There's something weird in there somewhere about why being a Daughter of Adam (the White Witch) is bad and being a Son of Adam (Peter, Edmund) is good, but I have a head cold and feel dreadful and can't articulate it.
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Actually, in LWW it doesn't work out like that. The White Witch is not human at all - not "Daughter of Adam" or "Daughter of Eve."
(pg. 77, LWW)
"...But she's no Daughter of Eve. She comes of your father Adam's --" (here Mr. beaver bowed) "your father Adam's first wife, her they called Lilith. And she was one of the Jinn. That's what she comes from on one side. And on the other she comes of giants. No, no, there isn't a drop of real Human blood in the Witch."
In LLW, then, Lilith is identified as a demon, not a human. The White Witch is descended from a demon and a giant; the point is that she looks human, and tries to trade on that, but she is not.
For C.S. Lewis in the Chronicles, "Daughter of Eve" meant human girl, "Son of Adam" meant human boy. Both were titles of royalty. For Lewis, the Biblical allusion was meant to invoke both original blessing and original sin, and applied equally to the boys and the girls. (from pg. 211-12, PC) "I do indeed, Sir," said Caspian. "I was wishing that I came of a more honourable lineage." "You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve," said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth. Be content."
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The second wife I don't know much about other than that she existed; when you do get to your books, if you felt like providing more detail I'd be most grateful.
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Now it could be that there is a clear Talmudic reference to the Lilith legend, that wasn't on the list I saw, but I'm skeptical.
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As for Job 18:15 (http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/t/t2718.htm) I assume your source is translating mibelilo as 'from in his lilith', which is a vast stretch, to say the least; a much more likely translation is 'from not being his' or 'that which is not his' (mibeli lo).
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