Provoked by a random remark in someone else's journal

[redbird]

Anyone who asks me "Is that a guy or a girl?" is almost certainly going to get one of the following three answers: Yes; No; Why do you want to know?

Addendum: Part of what I was thinking [and didn't say] is that, unless the person is asking about a young child (or a dog, cat, or other non-human), I'd be wondering "why are you asking me? Why not ask the person directly?" [If I'm out and about as the caretaker of a young child, of course you'd ask me, along with things like "how old is s/he?"

Also, the appropriate pronoun for talking to someone you meet is, in English at least, not gendered: "you" covers singular and plural, of any genders.

Comments

[amaebi.livejournal.com]

I have had Chun-watchers tell me that "what's important is that he knows" that he's a boy. Very odd.

[redbird]

That is odd. In addition to "important why?" my thought is "no, what's important is that he knows that you and Sheeyun love him, and that he's healthy, and is learning things like language and not to hit the other children."

[elusis.livejournal.com]

Gender is, for most people, a central psychological construct about themselves and others.

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but isn't it kind of presumptuous to assume any given specific person is part of that "most" ?

[elusis.livejournal.com]

I think it's presumptuous to react with dismay or coyness when someone asks a question that indicates they're probably part of "most."

[rysmiel.livejournal.com]

Even stipulating that you are right about gender being an important part of self-definition for most people, which is an issue on which I remain unconvinced, and even also stipulating, given that, that the importance of gender is innate [ which I very much doubt considering cultural variation in concepts of the same through history ] and also a healthy thing to have matter [ which I also seriously doubt is universlly true ], something still feels off to me here.

Am I correct in reading you as saying that the comfort of the person who asks "is that person female or male" expecting a definite answer takes precedence over the preferences of the person in question ? Because that feels to me like allocating a degree of importance to what is comfortable for the majority in ways that don't gel with optimum consideration for the minority, which includes allowing for the possibility that the person talked about might belong to that minority.

If the question were "is that person straight or gay", would the same standards apply ? Would they if the question were "is that person black or white" ?

[redbird]

Yes, and if Chun is one of those people, he'll sort it out without the well-meaning strangers' emphasizing it.

I also wonder to what extent that centrality is because everyone else insists on it.

[elusis.livejournal.com]

I'm sure the person in question will; however the strangers are likely to be that type of person themselves and I believe it's rather rude to act as if it's strange that they are.

[marykaykare.livejournal.com]

Some people find ambiguity hard to tolerate for various reasons. I do myself in certain things though not in this. I like looking at androgynous people and thinking about what things seem male and what things seem female and why.

MKK

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

The last time someone asked me that question (and expected me to know the answer) it was my grandmother asking about a college coworker. Actually, I don't think the person in question identified as anything other than her biological gender; she just had short hair, was very thin, and was more concerned about her grad-school studies than her clothing.

In the circumstances, I think it had little to do with whether attraction was permissable and a lot more with discomfort aound ambiguity.

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

The little girls I love are often mistaken for little boys. That happens to aggressive children with short hair and trousers (even pink or flowery trousers.) The little one is still oblivious. The 5-year-old is sometimes very emphatic about correcting people. It's important to her to identify as a girl and make sure everyone knows it, even in circumstances where that identity might not seem to make any real or practical difference.

I agree with you on the general principle that it usually does not matter, it usually should not matter, I feel that it matters if it's important to the person identified. It matters *because* it's important to the person identified. So when their father shows people a picture on his PDA, saying, "these are my kids," and someone says, "are they boys or girls?" not seeing any gender cues in the picture, I think it's a courtesy to the 5-year-old to say she is a girl.

[redbird]

Definitely--if it matters to the individual, and s/he isn't there to state that identity, it's entirely reasonable and courteous to say "she's a girl."

I was thinking more of people who will ask adult A whether random other adult B is male or female. (Raphael Carter has referred to this as being [drafted as] a 'gender oracle'.) If it matters, ask B. If you can't ask B, it almost certainly doesn't matter--whether you're a monosexual person considering asking for a date, or a medical practitioner trying to figure out whether B needs to be scheduled for a mammogram, you will need to talk to B at some point.

Part of this, I think, is my annoyance at people who are so invested in being monosexual that they have to know whether a stranger is female or male so they can know whether it's okay for them to find that person attractive [1]. That said, if someone were to say something like "I think that person is gorgeous, but I only date women/men," and I knew the answer and thought it appropriate, I would answer. Possibly with addenda like "s/he's of your preferred gender, but also monogamously married," if I knew that.

[1] I know plenty of people who are attracted to only one gender; as far as I know, few if any of them would get terribly upset if someone of the other gender caught their eye because they thought zie was of the preferred gender. [If you're in this group, feel free to comment, especially if you disagree with me.]

[janetmiles.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure I don't disagree with you.

To use Philip the Foole's phrase, I'm tragically bi-impaired (sexually and romantically attracted only to men). Despite this, I have what I consider to be a healthy aesthetic appreciation of beautiful, pretty, and interesting-looking women. And since I don't seem to develop an actual attraction to someone until I've known him for a while, it seems unlikely that I'd find myself in a situation of confusion, if that makes sense.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

If you can't ask B, it almost certainly doesn't matter

Actually, I think that often it's the times when I can't ask B when it matters most. If I can't ask B, it's most likely to be because I don't know B well enough to be confident that zie will be offended by the question (not unusual in a society where people are still raised to be strongly gendered, and where to imply that someone's gender is not obvious can be read as a criticism). Better in that situation to ask A so that I can get my pronouns right when in earshot of B.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

I think that's sort of a different question, though.

Asking A whether B is "male or female" as in the original post seems rude to me, because it doesn't embrace the power of AND - the question already assumes that you're able to fit person B into a binary gender configuration. Whereas if you ask A what pronoun B prefers, that includes multiple possibilities, including gender neutral or deliberate mixing up (using male and female pronouns together in different sentences for the same person). Likewise, asking A what B's gender identity is seems ok to me, because by its phrasing the question implies that you're open to a spectrum of answers.

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I tend to err on the side of assuming ignorance rather than rudeness.

Continuing to be insistant about binary options when the preference has been explained, that's rude.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

One thing I remember from that age is that it changes. I had years in nursery school and early grade school when I only wanted to wear skirts and years when I only wanted to wear jeans, and a year when I wore a baseball cap every day. There were times when I hated being called by a "boy's name" (Paula often turned to Paul when yelled across a playground) and times when I didn't care at all. One thing that never changed was that a high proportion of my friends were always boys.

So I guess I can conclude two things: one is that the importance of gender identity can change at a young age, and the other is that my mom was very good about *not* forcing more of less femininity on me than I wanted.