(no subject)

[redbird]

Not that I think many of my readers need this reminder, but good writing and good ideas are worth passing along: erbie has written an excellent post on How to stop rape. As she notes, it's almost certainly not complete, but it casts the right light on things. (I found it via metaquotes.)

Comments

[callunav.livejournal.com]

I reluctantly followed that link, expecting what it sounds like, and vaguely surprised that you would be perpetuating it. It was, needless to say, quite a welcme surprise.

Thanks for the link.

Years ago, while I was at the divinity school, I read a slim and cogent scholarly but readable text on ministry's response to child sexual abuse - I believe it may have been Jace C. Angelica's A Moral Emergency - which pointed out, simply and yet painfully necessarily - that all the campaigns aimed at teaching childen to say "No," when someone tries to touch them in inappropriate ways tends to overlook the fact that most child abusers aren't really likely to be deterred by a child saying 'no.'

So obvious. So stupid. So ignored....

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately I don't think they are terribly deterred by livejournal posts saying no, either.

[callunav.livejournal.com]

Nope. But I think that if the post were aimed at the rapists, rather than at the people who talk about rape and rapists, that would be a bigger problem. :)

I also got the impression that the post was knowingly preaching to the converted, and served two primary functions: one, to express it, because sometimes it helps to get things said, whether saying them is going to change anything but your headspace or not, and two, to offer something which can be referenced when one is involved in an annoying conversation with someone (in the 'talking about rapists' category, not the 'rapist' category) who Just Doesn't Get It.

I wouldn't mind seeing copies of that post tacked up on the walls in rooms where judges and juries hang out, for instance, just for a quick doe of perspective.

[kip-w.livejournal.com]

Millennia after "Thou shalt not kill," people still kill.

Shouldn't there be something about "Don't trust that everybody will abide by these"? I know I'm near the borderline of trite advice and victim-blaming, which is why I'm saying it here instead of over there. There will always be assholes; there will always be danger. Back to the example of murder: you can do everything right and still get dead if you're simply relying on others not to kill you.

[redbird]

Yes. True, and important

What is a useful message is "if someone touches you in a way you don't like, tell a parent/teacher/other trusted adult." The people who won't be deterred by a child saying no are more likely to be deterred by an adult saying "you're never getting near my child again" or "you're under arrest." If the adult is feeling less confrontational, for whatever reasons--the perceived authority of the abuser, not wanting to upset some third party--they can still make sure that their kid isn't alone with that person again. It's not as good an answer, because it doesn't protect neighbors, cousins, or other children, but it will help that child, which is no small thing.

[redbird]

This is true. And in both cases, useful things to do range from keeping an eye out to reporting assaults, and training police departments and the court system to take them seriously. You don't deter murder by shrugging off assaults that leave someone in the hospital as "boys will be boys," and you don't deter rape by treating sexual harassment and groping as "normal."

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

Calluna:
Jace C. Angelica's A Moral Emergency - which pointed out, simply and yet painfully necessarily - that all the campaigns aimed at teaching childen to say "No," when someone tries to touch them in inappropriate ways tends to overlook the fact that most child abusers aren't really likely to be deterred by a child saying 'no.'

I can't speak to "most." I don't know the statistics. (So much abuse goes unreported, I expect it's awfully difficult to find anything like accurate statistics.) But I know there are some people whose desire to sexually abuse children includes the strong delusion that the children want it. If children are intimidated into silence, abusers can project whatever fantasies they want. A child saying "no" is a reminder of reality, a reminder that they're not just following the script of the potential-abuser's fantasy. Sometimes it helps. I can see how it might be useless against a fair number of abusers, but I wouldn't expect it to be largely counterproductive.

[callunav.livejournal.com]

Hm. Do you have any examples of this? Considering how many "normal" people with adult partners have historically managed to convince themselves that "No" means "Oh, baby, give it to me," I'm a little skeptical. But if you have read/heard/experienced/otherwise know of incidents that prove me wrong, I'd love to know about it.